Interview
François Chaignaud
September
2022
Fri
30
Between the evocation of the 16th century’s blasons by François Chaignaud and the game of movements – sometimes hidden, sometimes revealed – by Tânia Carvalho: on October 1st and 2nd, for the first time, the Portuguese company Dançando com a Diferença takes the stage at Rivoli. We spoke with the French choreographer François Chaignaud about the creation of Blasons.
How has it been the experience of working with a Portuguese dance company?
It feels very special to work with this company. From the very first days, I felt I could be part of the family. I could see the company working like a family. They truly help each other, and there is a lot of self-organization. That was really impressive. So, on one hand, I could really feel I was part of the family. On the other hand, I also felt like a guest, not from the family, probably because of the language. This is a Portuguese-speaking company, and most of the performers and the people involved do not speak English or another language. So, it made my position very special, in a way, super connected through the exchange of dances, through the emotional shares. And, at the same time, I also felt very isolated for not speaking the language and because it was the first time for me to collaborate, not with an international or non-French company, but with an inclusive company. There were so many challenges and questions on how to connect when we don’t share the same speaking language and we obviously don’t share the same body history. It has been quite challenging, I must say.
Did you find new opportunities to create new languages, new ideas?
When Henrique [Amoedo], Claire [Verlet] and Tânia [Carvalho] invited me, they did it because they knew I had an approach to dance and movement that was could be very formal, or it would, at least, try to achieve certain forms through practice. And I felt that the company used to collaborate more with choreographers which worked more with the physicality of the performers. When I first started the workshops, I would try to share some routines, some choreographies, which already existed. And they were very interested in that approach where I wouldn’t come and let them improvise and then pick a movement that I found relevant, but instead, I would first propose to really share different ways of movement, even sequence of movements. So, they were very happy to try this perspective. That was maybe more challenging for them than for me. But then, the more the process evolved, I think we really had to find a method that was both new for them, and for me. It has been very challenging, but obviously the piece that we are doing, it’s my piece, but it is also their piece, in the sense that it could not have happened with another company. And, somehow, I really feel the signature is shared with the performer but also with the company itself. I think the opportunities and the challenges that a collaboration with Dançando com a Diferença offers, have a strong influence on the final proposal that we are sharing.
This piece evokes Clément Marot and the 16th century’s blasons that praise and satirize female bodies in relation to a symbolic virility of medieval European heraldry. How could your piece bring new forms of relationship and expression of/with bodies?
I think that quite early in the process, I was reading a lot about some Art History for another project, and I discovered this kind of poetry from the 16th century in France called blason. It’s actually called blasons of the female bodies. I was very surprised to discover a genre I didn’t know before. And that was interesting to me for many reasons. One reason is that those poems would look at someone’s body and decide to cut that body into pieces to dedicate a poem, for instance, to your hand or to your nose, or to your eye. So, it’s quite new in Europe that we have this vision that the body can be cut into pieces to be observed, described, praised and blasandes (as they say). I thought that for dancers it was very interesting because we all have a relation to our bodies that is very global, but we are also very use to work with one leg, one hand. The other aspect, I thought through this poetic genre, it was very clear how the Western mind shifted to a situation where some people could see the rest of the world and the rest of the human as objects. They were so objectified that they could be cut into pieces. It made an echo for me working with this company where many performers are in a situation of handicaps [are people with disabilities] that is also often very much objectified by the science, by the public, by different types of gazes.
It was a bit of a conceptual operation. Usually, we come to see Dançando com a Diferença to be amazed, surprised by how astonishing the dancers are. And we come to really look. We pay a ticket to look at dancers with handicaps [with disablities]. It’s so unusual and mind-blowing, which is true. But I wanted to reverse and to say what it would be: “You, the performers, use the stage not to be just looked at, but as a place where you can look at the world, to the audience. Where you are on stage is also a place of knowledge. What do you learn? What do you know? Where do you look from the people are watching you? The relation cannot be one-sided. It can be that all the audiences from Porto wouldn’t be delighted to watch you. It’s also about you. What kind of power does it give you to be watching the people watching you.”
Somehow, we used the blasons to feed this operation of reversing the gaze.
Do you feel like a poet yourself in this project?
I think the performers are the poets. But also, I disagree with the ideology under the blason, the fact that they [the poets] feel so confident to objectify everything. But the interesting thing is to connect to the sense of power (maybe abusive kind of power) that those poets had. Now it’s the performers who observe and try to connect with everything that is around them to maybe (if they want to) produce very short poems with their bodies.
How has it been the experience of working with a Portuguese dance company?
It feels very special to work with this company. From the very first days, I felt I could be part of the family. I could see the company working like a family. They truly help each other, and there is a lot of self-organization. That was really impressive. So, on one hand, I could really feel I was part of the family. On the other hand, I also felt like a guest, not from the family, probably because of the language. This is a Portuguese-speaking company, and most of the performers and the people involved do not speak English or another language. So, it made my position very special, in a way, super connected through the exchange of dances, through the emotional shares. And, at the same time, I also felt very isolated for not speaking the language and because it was the first time for me to collaborate, not with an international or non-French company, but with an inclusive company. There were so many challenges and questions on how to connect when we don’t share the same speaking language and we obviously don’t share the same body history. It has been quite challenging, I must say.
Did you find new opportunities to create new languages, new ideas?
When Henrique [Amoedo], Claire [Verlet] and Tânia [Carvalho] invited me, they did it because they knew I had an approach to dance and movement that was could be very formal, or it would, at least, try to achieve certain forms through practice. And I felt that the company used to collaborate more with choreographers which worked more with the physicality of the performers. When I first started the workshops, I would try to share some routines, some choreographies, which already existed. And they were very interested in that approach where I wouldn’t come and let them improvise and then pick a movement that I found relevant, but instead, I would first propose to really share different ways of movement, even sequence of movements. So, they were very happy to try this perspective. That was maybe more challenging for them than for me. But then, the more the process evolved, I think we really had to find a method that was both new for them, and for me. It has been very challenging, but obviously the piece that we are doing, it’s my piece, but it is also their piece, in the sense that it could not have happened with another company. And, somehow, I really feel the signature is shared with the performer but also with the company itself. I think the opportunities and the challenges that a collaboration with Dançando com a Diferença offers, have a strong influence on the final proposal that we are sharing.
This piece evokes Clément Marot and the 16th century’s blasons that praise and satirize female bodies in relation to a symbolic virility of medieval European heraldry. How could your piece bring new forms of relationship and expression of/with bodies?
I think that quite early in the process, I was reading a lot about some Art History for another project, and I discovered this kind of poetry from the 16th century in France called blason. It’s actually called blasons of the female bodies. I was very surprised to discover a genre I didn’t know before. And that was interesting to me for many reasons. One reason is that those poems would look at someone’s body and decide to cut that body into pieces to dedicate a poem, for instance, to your hand or to your nose, or to your eye. So, it’s quite new in Europe that we have this vision that the body can be cut into pieces to be observed, described, praised and blasandes (as they say). I thought that for dancers it was very interesting because we all have a relation to our bodies that is very global, but we are also very use to work with one leg, one hand. The other aspect, I thought through this poetic genre, it was very clear how the Western mind shifted to a situation where some people could see the rest of the world and the rest of the human as objects. They were so objectified that they could be cut into pieces. It made an echo for me working with this company where many performers are in a situation of handicaps [are people with disabilities] that is also often very much objectified by the science, by the public, by different types of gazes.
It was a bit of a conceptual operation. Usually, we come to see Dançando com a Diferença to be amazed, surprised by how astonishing the dancers are. And we come to really look. We pay a ticket to look at dancers with handicaps [with disablities]. It’s so unusual and mind-blowing, which is true. But I wanted to reverse and to say what it would be: “You, the performers, use the stage not to be just looked at, but as a place where you can look at the world, to the audience. Where you are on stage is also a place of knowledge. What do you learn? What do you know? Where do you look from the people are watching you? The relation cannot be one-sided. It can be that all the audiences from Porto wouldn’t be delighted to watch you. It’s also about you. What kind of power does it give you to be watching the people watching you.”
Somehow, we used the blasons to feed this operation of reversing the gaze.
Do you feel like a poet yourself in this project?
I think the performers are the poets. But also, I disagree with the ideology under the blason, the fact that they [the poets] feel so confident to objectify everything. But the interesting thing is to connect to the sense of power (maybe abusive kind of power) that those poets had. Now it’s the performers who observe and try to connect with everything that is around them to maybe (if they want to) produce very short poems with their bodies.
© José Caldeira
